Thanks Bob and Mark for your perspective. As a long time public servant, there were tangible rewards that can’t be discounted, like paying the mortgage and supporting a family. There were other rewards that are sometimes discounted in public discourse, like the satisfaction of providing resources and services to those in need of the type of governmental structure that makes the whole of our society function. Governmental services benefit all of us; they should be efficient and responsive. They should also look out for the common good and those who need shared resources to make it thru the day or right a wrong beyond their individual resources to make it right. We are interdependent in almost everything we do. We need a crisis management team, a committee of the whole, to put things to rights. The wrecking of legitimate governmental services will lead to instability and injury.
Isn’t the underlying question WHY the other person supports a politician or policies that I find reprehensible? In our current environment, it has become acceptable to express viewpoints that would have been unmentionable in polite circles in the past. I have two friends whom I believe voted for Trump (or, at least, did not vote for Harris). Both are basically single-issue voters: one is strongly opposed to abortion, and the other believes that our borders are being overrun by illegal immigrants. One of them is also a small business owner who believed the “successful businessman” hype. I’ve known him since high school (a LONG time ago) and know what a good person he is: understanding and supportive of anyone who is struggling physically, mentally, or emotionally. I’ve known the other person more than 15 years, and she is also a good person. Both are highly opinionated, but so am I. Although their support for Trump baffles me, because it seems inconsistent with their broader values, I know them well enough to know that it doesn’t define who they are. Although we try to avoid discussing politics, I believe both of them are bothered by what’s going on now, having been in denial about what he would do. However, there are people who support Trump because they favor authoritarianism or white Christian nationalism, and I just can’t be friends with someone whose values are so opposed to mine.
Your post reminds me of my favorite interaction in my favorite anti-war film [Full Metal Jacket] by my favorite film maker [Stanley Kubrick] - Private Joker's statement about the “duality of man”, symbolized by wearing a peace symbol in his jacket while having “Born to Kill” written on his combat helmet.
Both your and Mark's comments are spot on. I was privileged to have a guest column in the Sunday ADVOCATE some 40 years ago on the subject Bob addresses and I had a long career in state government in which I was fortunate enough to rise from the lowest GS level to the penultimate one and I can certainly relate to Mark's experience. The steadfast belief by the supporters of President Trump that he is the solution to our problems is similar to religious faith in that there is little tangible evidence to support it. The same articles of faith exist with regard to negative views of government workers and, no matter who says what about them, they are very difficult and often impossible to change. In my career I found the hardest working people were at the highest levels of state government. I always believed the thing lacking in state service was top to bottom accountability. I still believe the things I wrote 40 years ago about state service. I grew up in family retail business and working as a janitor when that became a struggle for me. After my state service I worked in the private sector for a number of years in a job having nothing to do with government. My experiences before and after state service convinced me accountability is the missing ingredient in the public sector and it would make all the difference. Politics exist and affect decisions in both sectors, but they absolutely rule in state service. That reality may never change and we have to accept it just as we have to accept the fact that people with whom we could still be friends accept a leader we find reprehensible but that does not automatically make them reprehensible. Kudos to both Bob and Mark.
Bob, thank you for sharing Mark's letter with us. His words have definitely lifted me up this morning and they come at a time when they were sorely needed.
I was fortunate enough to have a father that was a true democrat(definitely not a Dixiecrat), he believed in the principles of the party. He didn't just talk it, he walked it. Every time that we visited my grandmother, the first thing he would do on Friday evening was ask granny who needed help in the local community. We would spend Saturday morning at the local farmers market buying fresh vegetables and other staples. Then we would spend the afternoon distributing food staples to the families that needed help. Dad didn't care if they were white, black or brown. They needed help and he tried to provide it. He would spend time talking to the parents and praying for them. He made sure that I understood that under different circumstances their problems could have easily been ours and it was our responsibility to help however we could.
I live in a deeply red state and the running joke is that I am pretty much everybody's "token" liberal friend. I won't lie, there are a few friends that I have separated myself from just because they have gone way too far down the rabbit hole. For the most part, most of my friends know they aren't going to change my mind and I know I'm probably not going to change theirs. Doesn't mean we don't talk about our differences but we are able to exchange viewpoints while maintaining a semblance of civility. They are good people that live good lives.
I am starting to see concern on their part and agreement that things are going too far. There is hope!
Good people do not support a Nazi. You are desperately looking for the good. It is not there, and if it is,it is shallow. Good people who lead good lives DO NOT SUPPORT Trump. Both can not be true.
I respect your beliefs but 6 million jews had to die before Hitler was stopped. Love does not conquer all. That is mostly s TShirt meme. It would be great if it did. But it works til it doesn't. For 8 yrs it has not worked. But you do you. No scolding here either. Sometimes love is not enough. Just a fact.
I know it doesn't make sense. God is terrible at math. He doesn't keep score. Beyond the gospels, nothing influenced my thinking about this more than reading Will Campbell's "Brother to a Dragonfly." It's, by far, the most important book I've ever read. This piece doesn't do it justice, but it comes close to capturing what I believe and why I feel love is the only way out of the madness. https://philipyancey.com/apostle-to-the-rednecks/
Being a retired State employee I can attest to both of your views. The last honorable Republican administration that I worked in was the Treen Administration where you could disagree without being disagreeable.
The change started under Buddy Romero where one of his female cabinet secretaries held the philosophy that if state employees had worked in state government longer than 7 years they were incompetent. By the time of Jindal, his appointees thought they walked on water.
Thank you for sharing this, Bob. It is indeed folks like Mark who will build the coalition we need if we are to get past this current traumatizing period.
I understand the sadness and the disillusionment, the mixture of anger and fear. I've seen it coming for at least 20 years but didn't know what to do about it. It is dismaying to realize that, though I do not want to alienate friends or family because of politics, many of them do. I can only agree with Mr. Herbert that hope is essential for the preservation of sanity these days. I agree with Bob that keeping a safe distance is just as essential.
The more I see how accepting of Trump's heartless agenda, the more I fear we live on two different planes of existence. Government service is not evil, nor are government programs. However, those who have been trashing government for decades could fall into that category. Since I live among MAGA-ites and don't seem to have a way out of this state anytime in the near future, I guess have no choice to but to try to get along and to see the best in them. But I am finding that so difficult when so many accept Trump's refusal to follow judicial orders, including those from the Supreme Court.
This is good medicine for a great sickness in the land, and for my personal. proclivities.
I just received an email message of strong rebuke because of what I am writing on Substack. I had earlier this morning participated in a worship service. Many of the worshippers disagree with one another regarding today's political and social division, and do so openly and deeply.
Many hold to their points of view as matters of faith and Christian commitment to justice. During open intercessions I had a sense that people raising their voices were having to bite their tongues to avoid giving offense. Thoughts passed through my mind about how Jesus had not always held his tongue. Coming home to receive the email message, I am glad that in writing back I thanked my friend of sixty years for his frank and honest, and condescending, objections to my views. In doing so I realized that my motivation included a desire to punish him for his negativity over against my positive response.
I worked in government all of my life. As different administrations came and went,it was the incredible and devoted and protected civil service state workers who kept the government working and the services going. No matter how many ""promised" jobs an administration had to dole out, it was the core of dedicated workers who kept the ball rolling. I recall being called in one day and being told that MR X...I shall call him, would now be my supervisor though he had no experience and would make 5k more than me.
I remember going to him and telling him that the $$$ made no matter to me and if he just stayed in his office and out of my way, I would continue to give the 110% I always did BUT...he had to stay out of my way. He did. Was that fair? Hell no.
Did it allow me to continue my life calling to serve? Yes. Dedicated government workers do and did that everyday.
BUT maybe you sit in a spot where you are yet to see the devestation at a large scale.
I watched SO MANY innocent people die from COVID due to the beliefs of these cowards/racist/ greed driven MAGAS. I have no regrets in removing them from my life. Nazis are not welcome in my life. Your optimism that one day you will kumbaya I am afraid is a pipe dream. Can you imagine STILL supporting a man who you voted for who woke one morning and decided to invade Canada? If you still support this evil, stay away from me. These are not political differences they are MORAL differences.
My parents instilled in me how important it is to associate with people with like moral character. The best of many lessons they taught me!
I am sorely tempted to take the approach you advocate, but my belief in the teachings and example of Jesus will not allow me to do it. If I'm going to call myself a follower of Jesus -- and I try to follow him, quite imperfectly -- I must make room in my life and my heart for the kind of people that I know Jesus would not banish from his life. I understand if you do not accept that approach to life and I'm not scolding you for it (it's actually quite reasonable). But please believe me when I say it's motivated by my crazy belief in the teachings of a first-century rabbi from Palestine who said that loving our enemies is the best way to change the world.
Like Bob, I am not perfect in turning the other cheek. Perhaps I can further clarify my position. I do believe there’s a measure of justice for those who’ve caused harm through action or inaction. I also believe there’s a distinction to be made in the people who voted for Trump. Though there’s probably a fuller spectrum, somewhere there’s a line between the full MAGA person who endorses the cruelty and the Republican who’s been poisoned. My message was for the poisoned. If by some miracle a full MAGA sees the light, it is by a power greater than words can convey.
Thanks Bob and Mark for your perspective. As a long time public servant, there were tangible rewards that can’t be discounted, like paying the mortgage and supporting a family. There were other rewards that are sometimes discounted in public discourse, like the satisfaction of providing resources and services to those in need of the type of governmental structure that makes the whole of our society function. Governmental services benefit all of us; they should be efficient and responsive. They should also look out for the common good and those who need shared resources to make it thru the day or right a wrong beyond their individual resources to make it right. We are interdependent in almost everything we do. We need a crisis management team, a committee of the whole, to put things to rights. The wrecking of legitimate governmental services will lead to instability and injury.
Isn’t the underlying question WHY the other person supports a politician or policies that I find reprehensible? In our current environment, it has become acceptable to express viewpoints that would have been unmentionable in polite circles in the past. I have two friends whom I believe voted for Trump (or, at least, did not vote for Harris). Both are basically single-issue voters: one is strongly opposed to abortion, and the other believes that our borders are being overrun by illegal immigrants. One of them is also a small business owner who believed the “successful businessman” hype. I’ve known him since high school (a LONG time ago) and know what a good person he is: understanding and supportive of anyone who is struggling physically, mentally, or emotionally. I’ve known the other person more than 15 years, and she is also a good person. Both are highly opinionated, but so am I. Although their support for Trump baffles me, because it seems inconsistent with their broader values, I know them well enough to know that it doesn’t define who they are. Although we try to avoid discussing politics, I believe both of them are bothered by what’s going on now, having been in denial about what he would do. However, there are people who support Trump because they favor authoritarianism or white Christian nationalism, and I just can’t be friends with someone whose values are so opposed to mine.
Your post reminds me of my favorite interaction in my favorite anti-war film [Full Metal Jacket] by my favorite film maker [Stanley Kubrick] - Private Joker's statement about the “duality of man”, symbolized by wearing a peace symbol in his jacket while having “Born to Kill” written on his combat helmet.
Both your and Mark's comments are spot on. I was privileged to have a guest column in the Sunday ADVOCATE some 40 years ago on the subject Bob addresses and I had a long career in state government in which I was fortunate enough to rise from the lowest GS level to the penultimate one and I can certainly relate to Mark's experience. The steadfast belief by the supporters of President Trump that he is the solution to our problems is similar to religious faith in that there is little tangible evidence to support it. The same articles of faith exist with regard to negative views of government workers and, no matter who says what about them, they are very difficult and often impossible to change. In my career I found the hardest working people were at the highest levels of state government. I always believed the thing lacking in state service was top to bottom accountability. I still believe the things I wrote 40 years ago about state service. I grew up in family retail business and working as a janitor when that became a struggle for me. After my state service I worked in the private sector for a number of years in a job having nothing to do with government. My experiences before and after state service convinced me accountability is the missing ingredient in the public sector and it would make all the difference. Politics exist and affect decisions in both sectors, but they absolutely rule in state service. That reality may never change and we have to accept it just as we have to accept the fact that people with whom we could still be friends accept a leader we find reprehensible but that does not automatically make them reprehensible. Kudos to both Bob and Mark.
Bob, thank you for sharing Mark's letter with us. His words have definitely lifted me up this morning and they come at a time when they were sorely needed.
I was fortunate enough to have a father that was a true democrat(definitely not a Dixiecrat), he believed in the principles of the party. He didn't just talk it, he walked it. Every time that we visited my grandmother, the first thing he would do on Friday evening was ask granny who needed help in the local community. We would spend Saturday morning at the local farmers market buying fresh vegetables and other staples. Then we would spend the afternoon distributing food staples to the families that needed help. Dad didn't care if they were white, black or brown. They needed help and he tried to provide it. He would spend time talking to the parents and praying for them. He made sure that I understood that under different circumstances their problems could have easily been ours and it was our responsibility to help however we could.
I live in a deeply red state and the running joke is that I am pretty much everybody's "token" liberal friend. I won't lie, there are a few friends that I have separated myself from just because they have gone way too far down the rabbit hole. For the most part, most of my friends know they aren't going to change my mind and I know I'm probably not going to change theirs. Doesn't mean we don't talk about our differences but we are able to exchange viewpoints while maintaining a semblance of civility. They are good people that live good lives.
I am starting to see concern on their part and agreement that things are going too far. There is hope!
Good people do not support a Nazi. You are desperately looking for the good. It is not there, and if it is,it is shallow. Good people who lead good lives DO NOT SUPPORT Trump. Both can not be true.
Well, Jesus says I need to love everyone, good or not. So, I’m going to keep putting my faith in the transformative power of love.
I respect your beliefs but 6 million jews had to die before Hitler was stopped. Love does not conquer all. That is mostly s TShirt meme. It would be great if it did. But it works til it doesn't. For 8 yrs it has not worked. But you do you. No scolding here either. Sometimes love is not enough. Just a fact.
I know it doesn't make sense. God is terrible at math. He doesn't keep score. Beyond the gospels, nothing influenced my thinking about this more than reading Will Campbell's "Brother to a Dragonfly." It's, by far, the most important book I've ever read. This piece doesn't do it justice, but it comes close to capturing what I believe and why I feel love is the only way out of the madness. https://philipyancey.com/apostle-to-the-rednecks/
Thanks Bob & Mark,
Being a retired State employee I can attest to both of your views. The last honorable Republican administration that I worked in was the Treen Administration where you could disagree without being disagreeable.
The change started under Buddy Romero where one of his female cabinet secretaries held the philosophy that if state employees had worked in state government longer than 7 years they were incompetent. By the time of Jindal, his appointees thought they walked on water.
Keep stiring!
Mark this is beautiful and reflects you so perfectly. Miss you my friend.
❤️
God bless you, Karen. Miss you too.
Thank you for sharing this, Bob. It is indeed folks like Mark who will build the coalition we need if we are to get past this current traumatizing period.
I understand the sadness and the disillusionment, the mixture of anger and fear. I've seen it coming for at least 20 years but didn't know what to do about it. It is dismaying to realize that, though I do not want to alienate friends or family because of politics, many of them do. I can only agree with Mr. Herbert that hope is essential for the preservation of sanity these days. I agree with Bob that keeping a safe distance is just as essential.
The more I see how accepting of Trump's heartless agenda, the more I fear we live on two different planes of existence. Government service is not evil, nor are government programs. However, those who have been trashing government for decades could fall into that category. Since I live among MAGA-ites and don't seem to have a way out of this state anytime in the near future, I guess have no choice to but to try to get along and to see the best in them. But I am finding that so difficult when so many accept Trump's refusal to follow judicial orders, including those from the Supreme Court.
This is good medicine for a great sickness in the land, and for my personal. proclivities.
I just received an email message of strong rebuke because of what I am writing on Substack. I had earlier this morning participated in a worship service. Many of the worshippers disagree with one another regarding today's political and social division, and do so openly and deeply.
Many hold to their points of view as matters of faith and Christian commitment to justice. During open intercessions I had a sense that people raising their voices were having to bite their tongues to avoid giving offense. Thoughts passed through my mind about how Jesus had not always held his tongue. Coming home to receive the email message, I am glad that in writing back I thanked my friend of sixty years for his frank and honest, and condescending, objections to my views. In doing so I realized that my motivation included a desire to punish him for his negativity over against my positive response.
Joe Morris Doss
I worked in government all of my life. As different administrations came and went,it was the incredible and devoted and protected civil service state workers who kept the government working and the services going. No matter how many ""promised" jobs an administration had to dole out, it was the core of dedicated workers who kept the ball rolling. I recall being called in one day and being told that MR X...I shall call him, would now be my supervisor though he had no experience and would make 5k more than me.
I remember going to him and telling him that the $$$ made no matter to me and if he just stayed in his office and out of my way, I would continue to give the 110% I always did BUT...he had to stay out of my way. He did. Was that fair? Hell no.
Did it allow me to continue my life calling to serve? Yes. Dedicated government workers do and did that everyday.
They are remarkable people!
Nice of you to think that way.
BUT maybe you sit in a spot where you are yet to see the devestation at a large scale.
I watched SO MANY innocent people die from COVID due to the beliefs of these cowards/racist/ greed driven MAGAS. I have no regrets in removing them from my life. Nazis are not welcome in my life. Your optimism that one day you will kumbaya I am afraid is a pipe dream. Can you imagine STILL supporting a man who you voted for who woke one morning and decided to invade Canada? If you still support this evil, stay away from me. These are not political differences they are MORAL differences.
My parents instilled in me how important it is to associate with people with like moral character. The best of many lessons they taught me!
I am sorely tempted to take the approach you advocate, but my belief in the teachings and example of Jesus will not allow me to do it. If I'm going to call myself a follower of Jesus -- and I try to follow him, quite imperfectly -- I must make room in my life and my heart for the kind of people that I know Jesus would not banish from his life. I understand if you do not accept that approach to life and I'm not scolding you for it (it's actually quite reasonable). But please believe me when I say it's motivated by my crazy belief in the teachings of a first-century rabbi from Palestine who said that loving our enemies is the best way to change the world.
Like Bob, I am not perfect in turning the other cheek. Perhaps I can further clarify my position. I do believe there’s a measure of justice for those who’ve caused harm through action or inaction. I also believe there’s a distinction to be made in the people who voted for Trump. Though there’s probably a fuller spectrum, somewhere there’s a line between the full MAGA person who endorses the cruelty and the Republican who’s been poisoned. My message was for the poisoned. If by some miracle a full MAGA sees the light, it is by a power greater than words can convey.